Comments for Frontier Battles http://frontierbattles.wordpress.com Covering the wars for and against empire in America, 1607-1815 Thu, 10 Sep 2009 22:48:04 +0000 http://wordpress.com/ hourly 1 Comment on The Politically Correct Revolutionary War by sandrar http://frontierbattles.wordpress.com/2007/11/14/the-politically-correct-revolutionary-war/#comment-219 sandrar Thu, 10 Sep 2009 22:48:04 +0000 http://frontierbattles.wordpress.com/2007/11/14/the-politically-correct-revolutionary-war/#comment-219 Hi! I was surfing and found your blog post... nice! I love your blog. :) Cheers! Sandra. R. Hi! I was surfing and found your blog post… nice! I love your blog. :) Cheers! Sandra. R.

]]> Comment on The Decisive Battles of the Frontier by Paulette http://frontierbattles.wordpress.com/2008/01/18/the-decisive-battles-of-the-frontier/#comment-218 Paulette Sun, 30 Aug 2009 23:29:11 +0000 http://frontierbattles.wordpress.com/2008/01/18/the-decisive-battles-of-the-frontier/#comment-218 After reading this blog makes me want to start my own :) After reading this blog makes me want to start my own :)

]]> Comment on St. Clair’s Defeat vs. the Battle of Fallen Timbers: Defeat and the Lessons Learned and Applied in the Old Northwest Indian War, 1791-1795 by Michael C. Goncalves http://frontierbattles.wordpress.com/2007/08/05/st-clair%e2%80%99s-defeat-vs-the-battle-of-fallen-timbers-defeat-and-the-lessons-learned-and-applied-in-the-old-northwest-indian-war-1791-1795/#comment-171 Michael C. Goncalves Mon, 09 Mar 2009 23:37:03 +0000 http://frontierbattles.wordpress.com/2007/08/05/st-clair%e2%80%99s-defeat-vs-the-battle-of-fallen-timbers-defeat-and-the-lessons-learned-and-applied-in-the-old-northwest-indian-war-1791-1795/#comment-171 I understand the United States Army is studying 'Panic' as part of its non lethal weapons program. Something about the Army hired several Hollywood movie producers to work on the project. The goal of the project was to induce, through artifical means, such 'gripping fear' that the enemy would break and run. I can recall little of the paper but I remember it mentioning two events. One was the initial engagement of the Iraqi forces in Desert Storm (1991) where the American Army sent Bradleys (APCs) to lay down protected fire as M60A2 tanks with bulldozers buried Iraqi soldiers alive in their trench positions. Iraqi soldiers who witnessed the assult 'simply freaked' and ran away (much like Ypers 1915) The other battle mentioned was the Battle of Little Big Horn (1876) where troops of COL Custer were so terror-stricken that several members of the initial skirmish line put their cartridges in backwards (Evidence at the battlefield revealed cartridges with strikes to their bullets as opposed to cartridge rims. I've known about St. Clair's defeat (overview) for some time but most people know little about it (or the Fetterman Massacre of 1866). St. Clair's defeat was the greatest defeat George Washington ever experienced (as CNC, the buck stops with GEN Washington). I am suprised no one ever made a movie about it because it would be unbelievable, even by Twenty-First Century Hollywood 'political correctness' standards. 1. United Tribes under Little Turtle, magnificantly captained by Wells, an adopted white boy turned learned warrior. 2. Pitted against half of the American Army who GEN St. Clair described as 'the Creme de la Creme of America's streets, soup kitchens and bordellos' 3. That one sixth of the engaged American Fighting force consisted of camp followers (women, children, washer-women and prostitutes) 4. That after the militia had broken, women and children of the camp followers joined the ranks of the Regular Army to battle the Indians 5. That over a thousand US troops had been killed, most being UNARMED and simply hunted down like frightened animals. 6. That Indian losses were less than one sixth of American Losses and 7. That the Indians roasted so many Americans (put them on sticks) alive that their screams could be heard up to three days after the battle. 8. That the ensuing debacle not only caused America's first cabinet but the first envoking of EXECUTIVE PRIVLEDGE I am interested in the terror aspect of the battle, specifically: 1. What caused the Psychological breakdown to cause American troops to abandon their weapons and bolt 2. The wound to the cultural Psyke (concerning the savagery of Indian warriors). Indeed, the trama of this event (St. Clair's defeat and being hunted down/roasted alive) was so deep that it was one of the causitive factors which caused Brigideer General Hull to surrender his command (ten times the fighting force) to the British without firing a single shot in anger. CPTG I understand the United States Army is studying ‘Panic’ as part of its non lethal weapons program. Something about the Army hired several Hollywood movie producers to work on the project. The goal of the project was to induce, through artifical means, such ‘gripping fear’ that the enemy would break and run.

I can recall little of the paper but I remember it mentioning two events. One was the initial engagement of the Iraqi forces in Desert Storm (1991) where the American Army sent Bradleys (APCs) to lay down protected fire as M60A2 tanks with bulldozers buried Iraqi soldiers alive in their trench positions. Iraqi soldiers who witnessed the assult ’simply freaked’ and ran away (much like Ypers 1915)

The other battle mentioned was the Battle of Little Big Horn (1876) where troops of COL Custer were so terror-stricken that several members of the initial skirmish line put their cartridges in backwards (Evidence at the battlefield revealed cartridges with strikes to their bullets as opposed to cartridge rims.

I’ve known about St. Clair’s defeat (overview) for some time but most people know little about it (or the Fetterman Massacre of 1866). St. Clair’s defeat was the greatest defeat George Washington ever experienced (as CNC, the buck stops with GEN Washington).

I am suprised no one ever made a movie about it because it would be unbelievable, even by Twenty-First Century Hollywood ‘political correctness’ standards.

1. United Tribes under Little Turtle, magnificantly captained by Wells, an adopted white boy turned learned warrior.
2. Pitted against half of the American Army who GEN St. Clair described as ‘the Creme de la Creme of America’s streets, soup kitchens and bordellos’
3. That one sixth of the engaged American Fighting force consisted of camp followers (women, children, washer-women and prostitutes)
4. That after the militia had broken, women and children of the camp followers joined the ranks of the Regular Army to battle the Indians
5. That over a thousand US troops had been killed, most being UNARMED and simply hunted down like frightened animals.
6. That Indian losses were less than one sixth of American Losses and
7. That the Indians roasted so many Americans (put them on sticks) alive that their screams could be heard up to three days after the battle.
8. That the ensuing debacle not only caused America’s first cabinet but the first envoking of EXECUTIVE PRIVLEDGE

I am interested in the terror aspect of the battle, specifically: 1. What caused the Psychological breakdown to cause American troops to abandon their weapons and bolt 2. The wound to the cultural Psyke (concerning the savagery of Indian warriors). Indeed, the trama of this event (St. Clair’s defeat and being hunted down/roasted alive) was so deep that it was one of the causitive factors which caused Brigideer General Hull to surrender his command (ten times the fighting force) to the British without firing a single shot in anger. CPTG

]]> Comment on St. Clair’s Defeat vs. the Battle of Fallen Timbers: Defeat and the Lessons Learned and Applied in the Old Northwest Indian War, 1791-1795 by Chuck Brown http://frontierbattles.wordpress.com/2007/08/05/st-clair%e2%80%99s-defeat-vs-the-battle-of-fallen-timbers-defeat-and-the-lessons-learned-and-applied-in-the-old-northwest-indian-war-1791-1795/#comment-170 Chuck Brown Sun, 08 Mar 2009 00:46:39 +0000 http://frontierbattles.wordpress.com/2007/08/05/st-clair%e2%80%99s-defeat-vs-the-battle-of-fallen-timbers-defeat-and-the-lessons-learned-and-applied-in-the-old-northwest-indian-war-1791-1795/#comment-170 Dear Sauerwein; Thank you for your informative article on General St. Clair's engagement. I have some suggestions of some other lessons learned. With very close scrutiny and about 30 years study of American horse-and-musket era military history I have some thoughts upon comparing the two battles. The surprise of the command seems to have allowed the Native force to enter the main camp pell mell with the fleeing militia. The Indians were apparently forced out of the camp but were able to fire upon our troops in ranks from cover. By lying down under cover they could fire from a rest quite effectively. It appears to me that there were a few attempts to drive these hidden foes from the front by an advance with the bayonet. These attempts were limited to single battalions with small fronts. Any such advance would clear the immediate front of that unit as the Indians would readily retreat. But the flanks of the line would be open to deadly enfilade fire from warriors not in their front. Upon realization of this demoralizing situation the American line would retire to its original position while the Indians that had retreated simply advance again retaking their ground and firing with increased confidence and even more deadly aim at the backs of the infantrymen. Once attacked it was well nigh impossible to defend an unfortified position with the bayonet alone against a highly mobile force utilizing firearms. General Wayne's tactics successfully utilized the bayonet as THE primary weapon because the Legion was not forced to hold ground. They moved forward steadily while the Native force fired their weapons but apparently had no time to reload. They had no choice but to retire from the field as they could not successfully close for hand-to-hand combat with a line of men armed with bayonets. A tomahawk or knife (or even a sword) was no match for a well handled line of bayonets. Thank you for your article, I found it very interesting and thank you for helping to keep this period of our history in our collective memory. Yours quite cordially and most respectfully, Chuck Brown Dear Sauerwein;
Thank you for your informative article on General St. Clair’s engagement. I have some suggestions of some other lessons learned. With very close scrutiny and about 30 years study of American horse-and-musket era military history I have some thoughts upon comparing the two battles.
The surprise of the command seems to have allowed the Native force to enter the main camp pell mell with the fleeing militia. The Indians were apparently forced out of the camp but were able to fire upon our troops in ranks from cover. By lying down under cover they could fire from a rest quite effectively. It appears to me that there were a few attempts to drive these hidden foes from the front by an advance with the bayonet. These attempts were limited to single battalions with small fronts. Any such advance would clear the immediate front of that unit as the Indians would readily retreat. But the flanks of the line would be open to deadly enfilade fire from warriors not in their front. Upon realization of this demoralizing situation the American line would retire to its original position while the Indians that had retreated simply advance again retaking their ground and firing with increased confidence and even more deadly aim at the backs of the infantrymen. Once attacked it was well nigh impossible to defend an unfortified position with the bayonet alone against a highly mobile force utilizing firearms.
General Wayne’s tactics successfully utilized the bayonet as THE primary weapon because the Legion was not forced to hold ground. They moved forward steadily while the Native force fired their weapons but apparently had no time to reload. They had no choice but to retire from the field as they could not successfully close for hand-to-hand combat with a line of men armed with bayonets. A tomahawk or knife (or even a sword) was no match for a well handled line of bayonets.
Thank you for your article, I found it very interesting and thank you for helping to keep this period of our history in our collective memory.
Yours quite cordially and most respectfully,
Chuck Brown

]]> Comment on St. Clair’s Defeat vs. the Battle of Fallen Timbers: Defeat and the Lessons Learned and Applied in the Old Northwest Indian War, 1791-1795 by Daniel Sauerwein http://frontierbattles.wordpress.com/2007/08/05/st-clair%e2%80%99s-defeat-vs-the-battle-of-fallen-timbers-defeat-and-the-lessons-learned-and-applied-in-the-old-northwest-indian-war-1791-1795/#comment-167 Daniel Sauerwein Sun, 14 Dec 2008 22:07:23 +0000 http://frontierbattles.wordpress.com/2007/08/05/st-clair%e2%80%99s-defeat-vs-the-battle-of-fallen-timbers-defeat-and-the-lessons-learned-and-applied-in-the-old-northwest-indian-war-1791-1795/#comment-167 Michal, First, best of luck with your Ph.D. I am surprised that Warsaw University has a program that offers the training to work on such a topic. As to your question for help locating sources, I do not personally have any of these in my possession, but what I can suggest is that you see if they have been digitized either through Google Books or www.arhcive.org (would be under American Libraries). If these do not pan out, then your next option is to use World Cat and find libraries that have them and see what their policies are regarding copying the material and shipping it to you. It may be expensive, but those works would be very useful to you. I hope this helps you. Again best of luck. Daniel Michal,

First, best of luck with your Ph.D. I am surprised that Warsaw University has a program that offers the training to work on such a topic. As to your question for help locating sources, I do not personally have any of these in my possession, but what I can suggest is that you see if they have been digitized either through Google Books or http://www.arhcive.org (would be under American Libraries). If these do not pan out, then your next option is to use World Cat and find libraries that have them and see what their policies are regarding copying the material and shipping it to you. It may be expensive, but those works would be very useful to you. I hope this helps you. Again best of luck.

Daniel

]]> Comment on St. Clair’s Defeat vs. the Battle of Fallen Timbers: Defeat and the Lessons Learned and Applied in the Old Northwest Indian War, 1791-1795 by michal http://frontierbattles.wordpress.com/2007/08/05/st-clair%e2%80%99s-defeat-vs-the-battle-of-fallen-timbers-defeat-and-the-lessons-learned-and-applied-in-the-old-northwest-indian-war-1791-1795/#comment-164 michal Sun, 07 Dec 2008 18:31:50 +0000 http://frontierbattles.wordpress.com/2007/08/05/st-clair%e2%80%99s-defeat-vs-the-battle-of-fallen-timbers-defeat-and-the-lessons-learned-and-applied-in-the-old-northwest-indian-war-1791-1795/#comment-164 Hello, I am a scholar from Warsaw Univeristy. My Ph.d thesis focuses on American Indian Policy in the XIX century. Currently I am working the part concerning gen. Wayne's campaign. Apart from some primary sources I have in my posession ( american state papers, journal of wayne's campaign, william clark's journal of the campaign, etc) I am looking for some other sources, like: 1. Boyer, John "Daily Journal of Wayne's Campaign, from July 28th to November 2d, 1794, including an account of the memorable battle of 20th August." American Pioneer I (315-22, 351-57). 2. Draper, Lyman C. 1842 "Reminiscences of Gen. Brady on Wayne's Campaign, Detroit, August 13, 1842" Draper Mss 5U 126-150 Wisconsin Historical Society. [Lt. Brady, Preston's Rifle Company, 4th Sublegion] 1842 "Jerimiah Armstrong Narrative Col. Aug 3d 1842" Draper Mss 5u 151-159 Wisconsin Historical Society. 3. Knopf, Richard C. 1953 "Two Journals of the Kentucky Volunteers 1793 and 1794" The Filson Club History Quarterly 27 (247-81) 4.Smith, Dwight L. (ed.) 1952 From Greene Ville to Fallen Timbers: A journal of the Wayne Campaign July 28-September 14, 1794. Indiana Historical Society, Indianapolis. [Anonymous Journal - Probably Gen. James Wilkinson or his aide] 5.Wilson, Frazer E. 1935 Journal of Capt. Daniel Bradley: An Epic of the Ohio Frontier Frank H. Jobes & Son, Greeneville, Ohio. [Officer in 2nd(?) Sublegion] Maybe you could help me in any way? I would be very much grateful. best regards, Michal Hello,

I am a scholar from Warsaw Univeristy. My Ph.d thesis focuses on American Indian Policy in the XIX century. Currently I am working the part concerning gen. Wayne’s campaign. Apart from some primary sources I have in my posession ( american state papers, journal of wayne’s campaign, william clark’s journal of the campaign, etc) I am looking for some other sources, like:
1. Boyer, John
“Daily Journal of Wayne’s Campaign, from July 28th to November 2d, 1794, including an account of the memorable battle of 20th August.” American Pioneer I (315-22, 351-57).
2. Draper, Lyman C.
1842 “Reminiscences of Gen. Brady on Wayne’s Campaign, Detroit, August 13, 1842″ Draper Mss 5U 126-150 Wisconsin Historical Society.
[Lt. Brady, Preston's Rifle Company, 4th Sublegion]
1842 “Jerimiah Armstrong Narrative Col. Aug 3d 1842″ Draper Mss 5u 151-159 Wisconsin Historical Society.
3. Knopf, Richard C.
1953 “Two Journals of the Kentucky Volunteers 1793 and 1794″ The Filson Club History Quarterly 27 (247-81)
4.Smith, Dwight L. (ed.)
1952 From Greene Ville to Fallen Timbers: A journal of the Wayne Campaign July 28-September 14, 1794. Indiana Historical Society, Indianapolis.
[Anonymous Journal - Probably Gen. James Wilkinson or his aide]
5.Wilson, Frazer E.
1935 Journal of Capt. Daniel Bradley: An Epic of the Ohio Frontier Frank H. Jobes & Son, Greeneville, Ohio.
[Officer in 2nd(?) Sublegion]

Maybe you could help me in any way? I would be very much grateful.
best regards,
Michal

]]> Comment on BATTLE OF FALLEN TIMBERS CONFIRMS AMERICAN INDEPENDENCE-PART IV by BATTLE OF FALLEN TIMBERS CONFIRMS AMERICAN INDEPENDENCE-CONCLUSION « Frontier Battles http://frontierbattles.wordpress.com/2008/11/22/battle-of-fallen-timbers-confirms-american-independence-part-iv/#comment-153 BATTLE OF FALLEN TIMBERS CONFIRMS AMERICAN INDEPENDENCE-CONCLUSION « Frontier Battles Sun, 23 Nov 2008 20:48:21 +0000 http://frontierbattles.wordpress.com/?p=60#comment-153 [...] Frontier Battles Covering the wars for and against empire in America, 1607-1815 « BATTLE OF FALLEN TIMBERS CONFIRMS AMERICAN INDEPENDENCE-PART IV [...] [...] Frontier Battles Covering the wars for and against empire in America, 1607-1815 « BATTLE OF FALLEN TIMBERS CONFIRMS AMERICAN INDEPENDENCE-PART IV [...]

]]> Comment on BATTLE OF FALLEN TIMBERS CONFIRMS AMERICAN INDEPENDENCE-PART IV by BATTLE OF FALLEN TIMBERS CONFIRMS AMERICAN INDEPENDENCE-PART III « Frontier Battles http://frontierbattles.wordpress.com/2008/11/22/battle-of-fallen-timbers-confirms-american-independence-part-iv/#comment-152 BATTLE OF FALLEN TIMBERS CONFIRMS AMERICAN INDEPENDENCE-PART III « Frontier Battles Sun, 23 Nov 2008 02:51:28 +0000 http://frontierbattles.wordpress.com/?p=60#comment-152 [...] America, 1607-1815 « BATTLE OF FALLEN TIMBERS CONFIRMS AMERICAN INDEPENDENCE-PART II BATTLE OF FALLEN TIMBERS CONFIRMS AMERICAN INDEPENDENCE-PART IV [...] [...] America, 1607-1815 « BATTLE OF FALLEN TIMBERS CONFIRMS AMERICAN INDEPENDENCE-PART II BATTLE OF FALLEN TIMBERS CONFIRMS AMERICAN INDEPENDENCE-PART IV [...]

]]> Comment on BATTLE OF FALLEN TIMBERS CONFIRMS AMERICAN INDEPENDENCE-PART III by BATTLE OF FALLEN TIMBERS CONFIRMS AMERICAN INDEPENDENCE-PART IV « Frontier Battles http://frontierbattles.wordpress.com/2008/11/21/battle-of-fallen-timbers-confirms-american-independence-part-iii/#comment-151 BATTLE OF FALLEN TIMBERS CONFIRMS AMERICAN INDEPENDENCE-PART IV « Frontier Battles Sun, 23 Nov 2008 02:48:58 +0000 http://frontierbattles.wordpress.com/?p=58#comment-151 [...] Frontier Battles Covering the wars for and against empire in America, 1607-1815 « BATTLE OF FALLEN TIMBERS CONFIRMS AMERICAN INDEPENDENCE-PART III [...] [...] Frontier Battles Covering the wars for and against empire in America, 1607-1815 « BATTLE OF FALLEN TIMBERS CONFIRMS AMERICAN INDEPENDENCE-PART III [...]

]]> Comment on BATTLE OF FALLEN TIMBERS CONFIRMS AMERICAN INDEPENDENCE-PART II by BATTLE OF FALLEN TIMBERS CONFIRMS AMERICAN INDEPENDENCE-PART III « Frontier Battles http://frontierbattles.wordpress.com/2008/09/28/battle-of-fallen-timbers-confirms-american-independence-part-ii/#comment-147 BATTLE OF FALLEN TIMBERS CONFIRMS AMERICAN INDEPENDENCE-PART III « Frontier Battles Sat, 22 Nov 2008 05:56:03 +0000 http://frontierbattles.wordpress.com/?p=51#comment-147 [...] Frontier Battles Covering the wars for and against empire in America, 1607-1815 « BATTLE OF FALLEN TIMBERS CONFIRMS AMERICAN INDEPENDENCE-PART II [...] [...] Frontier Battles Covering the wars for and against empire in America, 1607-1815 « BATTLE OF FALLEN TIMBERS CONFIRMS AMERICAN INDEPENDENCE-PART II [...]

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